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bfs420
Cholo Nako
Joined: 13 Apr 2003
Posts: 22
  
Votes: 2
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 Posted: 22 Nov 2006 02:57 AM Post subject: |
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| locoinclx wrote: | | Yes it is a more legitimate source than “Narco News”. |
Yes, I agree Wikipedia is probably a more legitimate source then Narco News but I think we can agree that Wikipedia is not a legitimate source either. My professors always make it clear that wikipedia is not a valid source.
| locoinclx wrote: | | I don’t think Felipe Calderon has the guts to privatize Education. |
No, but this man will.
http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2006/pr06220.htm
As well as his cabinet.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061121/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_new_government
"Laying the groundwork for a business-friendly government". That is neo-liberal language for privatization and deregulation.
"Georgina Kessel, an economist educated at Columbia University, will be Mexico's first female energy secretary. She has promised to modernize the country's energy sector."
How do you modernize the energy sector? You make it competitive. How do you make a company competitive? You privatize and expose it to the free market with no restrictions; deregulation.
http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1558317,00.html
"we need a competitive, job-creating economy. But in order to have that, you have to make market conditions more competitive, and that means reducing the monopoly power of some public and private companies."
This means privatizing the public sector in order to reduce the monopoly and create a field of competition between the public and private sector of the economy.
| locoinclx wrote: | | You see, true democracy would never be able to exist in this world because that would mean that every citizen of each and every country would show up in and rule their own countries. |
You’re starting to sound like a communist. You said it yourself:
| locoinclx wrote: | | democracy is the act of voting for a representative. You have someone that represents you in government. |
| locoinclx wrote: | | Communism’s belief was to have everyone as equals, they would get the same exact car, same exact house, same exact everything, in which would not create jealousy and other factors that would bring the emergence of Capitalism. |
Your telling me that I gave you a third grade description when you say something like this. This kind of explanation is what I was given when I was a child.
Communism exists when the means of production are in the hands of the working class and not a small, capitalist, ruling class. How a true communist society will turn out; who knows. It depends on the country. It is very subjective and theoretical to say that everyone will be the same.
| locoinclx wrote: | | But you see, the minute you have a Nation/State involved in a socialist government, that nation state will become a Communist state. Which in my opinion, heck if it has worked for Cuba for 60 years, why wouldn’t it work for Mexico right? |
Cuba is not communist, it's socialist. The means of production are still in control by the state and not the working class. Cuba is in bad shape because of trade embargos from the U.S. but if you look at the positive aspects of a Socialist state; Cuba has one of the best health care systems in the world and has one of the highest levels of education and literacy in Latin America. The constitution grants Cubans the right to free health care and education including higher learning. When you compare that to the U.S.; our health care and education systems are in bad shape, many people don’t have access to adequate health care, and the students that come out of higher learning facilities start off life being thousands of dollars in debt. Not including, that many poor performing high schools don’t provide the vehicle to prepare students for higher learning. So many students like CHS grads, end of joining the military or working dead end jobs because the school system failed to provide the means to drive kids to college. So my point is, even though Cuba is in bad shape with many problems, there is something to learn from this Socialist state.
I didn’t want to start this socialist/capitalist debate because we are never going to reach a consensus. |
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locoinclx
The Door Rehab
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 855
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Votes: 5
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| Posted: 22 Nov 2006 11:53 AM Post subject: |
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| bfs420 wrote: | | Yes, I agree Wikipedia is probably a more legitimate source then Narco News but I think we can agree that Wikipedia is not a legitimate source either. My professors always make it clear that wikipedia is not a valid source. |
Your professor is right and you should follow their advice… I am not going to defend wikipedia because it’s basically the encyclopedia for the regular person. The site has a lot of good information and most of the time; it has website references to where they got the information. You most definitely cannot quote from wikipedia when writing a research paper, but apparently for you, wikipedia is not a legitimate source for Calecia.com either. I guess you can ask that question to the rest of Calecia.com and see what they think.
I am all for capitalism with moderation, it’s a more liberal society and from what I had read from your references, it looks like Calderon is going to skew that way. Is he there for the rich of the country? Most definitely, but it also looks like he is going to try to bring more of the foreign sector into Mexico. I don’t know about you but I rather buy quality products that say “Made in Mexico” than “Made in China”. That means that the foreign sector will ultimately bring more labor to Mexico.
I would rather see Mexicans, living in Mexico with their families close to them and working for companies like Dole and Sony than to have them working here in the US with the same companies and having the constant tread of being deported.
| bfs420 wrote: | "Georgina Kessel, an economist educated at Columbia University, will be Mexico's first female energy secretary. She has promised to modernize the country's energy sector."
How do you modernize the energy sector? You make it competitive. How do you make a company competitive? You privatize and expose it to the free market with no restrictions; deregulation.
http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1558317,00.html
"we need a competitive, job-creating economy. But in order to have that, you have to make market conditions more competitive, and that means reducing the monopoly power of some public and private companies."
This means privatizing the public sector in order to reduce the monopoly and create a field of competition between the public and private sector of the economy. |
I don’t know why were discussing this considering that I had already explained why having a capitalist society usually works better for the consumer. That said I will not get into any more details about privatizing Mexico. I still haven’t read anything from the websites you stated and from other sites that I’ve read in which Calderon and/or his cabinet stated that he will privatize education.
By the way, I have not been able to find any information about the Cabinet that Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador has set up. That’s if you call it a cabinet because from what I have read;
[url] http://www.lopezobrador.org.mx/gabinete[/url]
Some of these Cabinet post titles are straight out laughable…
| bfs420 wrote: | | locoinclx wrote: | | You see, true democracy would never be able to exist in this world because that would mean that every citizen of each and every country would show up in and rule their own countries. |
You’re starting to sound like a communist. You said it yourself:
| locoinclx wrote: | | democracy is the act of voting for a representative. You have someone that represents you in government. |
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If I sound like a Communist, then you should really go back to school and ask for your money back.
Plus any Political Science Professor (in what ever college or University you go to) can tell you that there has never been a “true democracy”.
| bfs420 wrote: | | locoinclx wrote: | | Communism’s belief was to have everyone as equals, they would get the same exact car, same exact house, same exact everything, in which would not create jealousy and other factors that would bring the emergence of Capitalism. |
Your telling me that I gave you a third grade description when you say something like this. This kind of explanation is what I was given when I was a child. |
Based on the third grade definition that you had given me, I had believed that you in fact where in the third grade, so I gave you a third graders definition of Communism.
| bfs420 wrote: | | Communism exists when the means of production are in the hands of the working class and not a small, capitalist, ruling class. How a true communist society will turn out; who knows. It depends on the country. It is very subjective and theoretical to say that everyone will be the same. |
What you just stated is the definition of Socialism. Communism is when you have a Nation/State taking over the matters of the people in a socialist environment.
| bfs420 wrote: |
Cuba is not communist, it's socialist. The means of production are still in control by the state and not the working class. Cuba is in bad shape because of trade embargos from the U.S. but if you look at the positive aspects of a Socialist state; Cuba has one of the best health care systems in the world and has one of the highest levels of education and literacy in Latin America. The constitution grants Cubans the right to free health care and education including higher learning. When you compare that to the U.S.; our health care and education systems are in bad shape, many people don’t have access to adequate health care, and the students that come out of higher learning facilities start off life being thousands of dollars in debt. Not including, that many poor performing high schools don’t provide the vehicle to prepare students for higher learning. So many students like CHS grads, end of joining the military or working dead end jobs because the school system failed to provide the means to drive kids to college. So my point is, even though Cuba is in bad shape with many problems, there is something to learn from this Socialist state.
I didn’t want to start this socialist/capitalist debate because we are never going to reach a consensus. |
Again, Cuba is a communist country because it’s ruled by a leader and its no by its people. Now I’m confused; if Cubans where really happy to live in their country, then how do explain the thousands that are flocking to the US?
The trade embargo that the US has doesn’t mean that Cuba can’t export to other countries. There are more than 180 countries all over the world and yet Cuba is dying because the US imposed a trade embargo? Come on! If Cuba wasn’t that much up its own ass, it would be doing what China is doing. If you want to give me examples about socialism, you should start with China, and not Cuba.
As for the education in Calexico, well you really don’t want to get me started on that. Let’s put it this way, in order for Calexico to get better education, they would have to start by making most of the teachers go to a phonetics class and re learn English.
That said I do not see any people from Cuba getting Nobel prizes?? I think Mexico has to get more foreign companies into Mexico and have a better system so that start up companies with in Mexico can better compete with the global market. Once the workforce is up to speed, the education system can go up. Think about it, with such a mediocre workforce that we have in the United States, we are able to stay as the most powerful nation in the world. What type of nation could we be (or Mexico be for that matter) if our entire workforce was educated all the way through college? |
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bfs420
Cholo Nako
Joined: 13 Apr 2003
Posts: 22
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| Posted: 22 Nov 2006 03:12 PM Post subject: |
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I don't want to continue attacking every point but I just want to comment on a few things. It's obvious we come from completely different points of views and will probably never come to an agreement of which system is better. but hey that's politics right? That's why nothing ever gets done.
| locoinclx wrote: | | I am all for capitalism with moderation |
We are at the point where there is no capitalism with moderation when it comes to foreign policy. This is why we are inflicting Neo-liberal policies all over the world. Neo-liberalism is capitalism in its most destructive force.
| locoinclx wrote: |
I don’t know why were discussing this considering that I had already explained why having a capitalist society usually works better for the consumer. |
We are discussing this because of what Felipe Calderon's administration represents. And that is opening up the national institutions to foreign investment. Foreign investment doesn't necessarily mean cheaper prices. We already have Wal-Mart and many huge American companies in Mexico and prices are still the same if not higher then the U.S.. Foreign Investment is only allowing money to leave Mexico rather then remain in the Economy. This type of capitalist society creates more poverty because wealth is extracted from the Mexican economy to benefit foreign investors. My stance is that in order for Mexico to continue to be a prosperous nation they need to continue with Nationalistic policies started by Lazaro Cardenas in the 1930's. Selling out to foreign investors has only proved devastating to the Mexican society and economy. This will only increase poverty, increase migration, and weaken the economy by extracting money to pay off foreign investors.
| locoinclx wrote: | | then you should really go back to school and ask for your money back. |
I can't because our education system requires me to take out thousands of dollars in loans.
| locoinclx wrote: |
Again, Cuba is a communist country because it’s ruled by a leader and its no by its people. |
I'm sorry but I think you have it backwards. Socialism is more centralized while communism is an economy under the control of the working class. In order to get to communism, you first need a socialist state. The constitution of Cuba says it's communist, but that's only by name. It's socialist. check out the description:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba
| locoinclx wrote: | | Now I’m confused; if Cubans where really happy to live in their country, then how do explain the thousands that are flocking to the US? |
I never said they were happy. I said Cuba is in bad shape and has many problems but there are positive aspects to look at from their system.
| locoinclx wrote: |
As for the education in Calexico, well you really don’t want to get me started on that. Let’s put it this way, in order for Calexico to get better education, they would have to start by making most of the teachers go to a phonetics class and re learn English. |
I agree the Calexico school system sucks and did not prepare me very well for college. |
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superplayer
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Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Calexico
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| Posted: 24 Nov 2006 11:59 AM Post subject: |
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| I don't want to continue attacking every point but I just want to comment on a few things. It's obvious we come from completely different points of views and will probably never come to an agreement of which system is better. but hey that's politics right? That's why nothing ever gets done. |
This is very true, but you only seem to find all the possible faults of capitalism and seem to find excuses for all the faults of socialism/communism. A good discussion is where all sides would see all the pros/cons. If I would favor a capitalist society is not because I am a sell-out but because it has been shown (in general) that it provides a better way of life for people as opposed to USSR, Cuba, etc.
I agree the Calexico school system sucks and did not prepare me very well for college. |
Unfortunately, the system is not designed for you to particuarly go to college. There has been many attempts by scholars to make the public school system a place for preparation for future occupations but until now, this is not the main ideal that they should be educated citizens in their communities. I work at the local school system and can tell you, it's not the teachers that are the problem, teachers are pretty well prepared and have endured contless expectations by the state of CA to have their licenses. It's the students who don't show a sincere effort and are more interested in their social life. To tell you the truth, there's a few school sites around here where I wouldn't work even if I was paid double or triple. It's really sad to see those kids, they prefer to hang around in Mexicali, drugs, girls getting pregnant, etc. As always there's the excuse by many people that "teachers should encourage studnets that they ..." and teachers should be a role model for blah blah blah" All talk by those who haven't been inside a real classroom for decades. The govt. restricts what you should say or do to students, where a simple handshake could be sexual harrasment. To make the long story short, there's no authority over students. How can you expect them to transform students from rebel teenagers to self-made professionals? Sure there's always those few that succeed and have attitude and integrity but very few, it's overall really sad. |
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locoinclx
The Door Rehab
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 855
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Votes: 5
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| Posted: 27 Nov 2006 10:25 AM Post subject: |
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Must say that over the thanksgiving weekend, I spent time looking at the news magazine programs for both the Televisa and TV Azteca networks, while eating mom’s turkey. It is now that I truly believe that most Mexicans are writing off Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador as a Joke. I don’t think that there is much to talk about in this thread until Dec1st when either the whole country goes to hell or nothing happens. That said I will be glued to the TV set on that day… Thank god I have a TV at work!
As for Super player’s remark on education… Please do not blame the students for the lack of progress in the school system. I have seen students from many different school districts, and I must say that most are the same way as the kids in Calexico. I have an acquaintance whom is a teacher in Santa Monica and they deal with exactly the same problems that you guys deal with. Heck half a year ago a kid got shot dead on a sidewalk on his way home (the fact is that most of the kids that go to Santa Monica High are poor to slightly middle class, because the rest of the city takes their kids to private schools). They show many of the lack of technologies and other monetary cuts that also face Calexico Unified, yet they are amongst the best in the state in scores.
Teachers have the same level of blame as the students and the parents when it comes to education. Teaching used to be a vocation where the teacher took the job because they wanted to teach kids, now many of them are just there to claim the check and go home. If you do not believe me then go check out any of the teachers parking lots at any school and count how many cars are there after 330pm.
I will not go on my usual rant about education because this is not the thread to do it in… |
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superplayer
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Location: Calexico
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| Posted: 27 Nov 2006 02:45 PM Post subject: |
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| As for Super player’s remark on education… Please do not blame the students for the lack of progress in the school system. I have seen students from many different school districts, and I must say that most are the same way as the kids in Calexico...They show many of the lack of technologies and other monetary cuts that also face Calexico Unified, yet they are amongst the best in the state in scores. |
That also happens here, there's also studnets who improve in their scores and we have quite a few wonderful examples, that however requires that the student must have the motivation first, and I dare to say that many of them do not. This is just not my opinion, ask a secondary school teacher and not just someone that you find on the street.
Teaching used to be a vocation where the teacher took the job because they wanted to teach kids, now many of them are just there to claim the check and go home. |
We try like crazy to teach kids and motivate them, we also spend many hours designing a lesson plan that communicates both learning and motivation at the same time, according to the state expectations and our own personal motives as well. Once again, there are some who do take the big step and get motivated, but sadly many others don't. In other words, the reality inside a classroom is way much different than a lot of people imagine.
Mr. locoinclx, may I ask you when was the last time you were in a public Junior High classroom during real teaching time?
As a matter of fact, I think we have already discussed this issue in another thread, let's save this for some other place and go back to AMLO and his stupid face. |
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locoinclx
The Door Rehab
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Votes: 5
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| Posted: 27 Nov 2006 03:43 PM Post subject: |
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Those acquaintances are not just people I pick off the street, one of them happens to be my sister. Also if you think you have it bad, I can you should go to other lower achieving schools and see how bad they have it, before you start blaming the kids for all of the problems that the school system has.
As a matter of fact the last time I was at a high school was 3 months ago, as a visitor; I’ve seen what kids do first hand... I’m not just an ignorant junkie, I am active in my community and do go to district meetings, I tend to be more involved than most of the teachers, parents and kids are at Calexico Unified. There is no accountability for the parents and students towards the student’s academia, but don't come up to me and say that the failures of education in Calexico, in California and in the US are the responsibility of the students and only the students.
I am not the type of person that seldom comes out and just talks for the heck of it… If I state something in this thread is because I have spoken to people about it or I have informed my self about it. Please don’t try to insult my intelligence with responses like “well how do you know” or the ohh so popular “well you don’t live in Calexico” slogans. For many simply resorting to slogans like that, tends to undermine their success in discussing the point at hand. Therefore, please refrain yourself from making assumptions as to how much I would know about education. You don’t have to be a teacher to know how bad teachers have it… as well as how bad students have it… |
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superplayer
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| Posted: 27 Nov 2006 07:01 PM Post subject: |
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| locoinclx wrote: | Those acquaintances are not just people I pick off the street, one of them happens to be my sister...before you start blaming the kids for all of the problems that the school system has.
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I never blamed kids for the problems of the school system. I said that there are plenty of kids that are not interested in succeeding in school and in their personal carreers, and that the teachers are just doing what they can and they cannot force students to change their minds. They can obviously motivate (there's plenty that do), but the statistics of success are just not there. And by "kids" I meant the ones that are in their last years of public school which is the stage in their lives when their either show sincere effort or not. Things are different in elementary schools where it's way easier to work with younger kids, or with high-achieving classrooms such as advanced math at the high school. Anyone that works there knows that the chemistry of the classroom changes from place to place. Usually the teachers who have the nicest kids would never say anything like I have. Just dare to ask the ones with low-achieving students.
| Also if you think you have it bad, I can you should go to other lower achieving schools and see how bad they have it, |
I was a substitute at Aurora High for some time just to name one low-achieving school; don't come and tell me how it is.
| As a matter of fact the last time I was at a high school was 3 months ago, as a visitor; I’ve seen what kids do first hand... I’m not just an ignorant junkie, I am active in my community and do go to district meetings, I tend to be more involved than most of the teachers, parents and kids are at Calexico Unified. There is no accountability for the parents and students towards the student’s academia, but don't come up to me and say that the failures of education in Calexico, in California and in the US are the responsibility of the students and only the students. |
What you see at the high school is different, it has plenty of well mannered students (according to their teenage behaviors). If you walk around,(I have to do it all the time) you'll see all the students discussing things with the teacher in a nice way; this doesn't mean that all students will be successful in going to college, as you have pointed before, the school system does not prepare them well. You said it. You say you are not an ignorant junkie, but it takes more than a simple visit to realize what's going on there.
| I am not the type of person that seldom comes out and just talks for the heck of it… If I state something in this thread is because I have spoken to people about it or I have informed my self about it. Please don’t try to insult my intelligence with responses like “well how do you know” or the ohh so popular “well you don’t live in Calexico” slogans. . as well as how bad students have it… |
I haven't responded with phrases like those that you have mentioned. I don't need to insult anyone's inteligence or to act defiant to insist on my point, so please let's stick to the main point.
To make this a short story, the main thing is, you blame the teachers for the failure of young people attending college, but don't position yourself in their situation to ensure the promt success of young people attending college.
What would you do? Give examples for a change that would guarantee the success of future public school students in universities. But please none of Stand and Deliver talk. |
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locoinclx
The Door Rehab
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 855
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Votes: 5
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| Posted: 28 Nov 2006 10:15 AM Post subject: |
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| superplayer wrote: | | I haven't responded with phrases like those that you have mentioned. I don't need to insult anyone's inteligence or to act defiant to insist on my point, so please let's stick to the main point. |
You did respond with a phrase just like that… here’s what you said…
| superplayer wrote: | | Mr. locoinclx, may I ask you when was the last time you were in a public Junior High classroom during real teaching time? |
It is an indirect judgment that If I am not a teacher or work for anything regarding education, therefore I would not know what I am talking about. Funny, because you did end up commenting on how little time I spend at a school. Instead of finding ways to discredit my discussion, please find ways to further enhance the discussion, and let us know more about the problems you face.
I blame the teachers for one simple reason, most of them (not saying you do it too) tend to blame the administration for the failures of the school, the administration blames the district, the district blames the state and so on and so forth… But it all boils down to one teacher… There are those students whom you will never be able to put on the right track. There are other students who are already on the right track and well don’t need any help. But the students, the vast majority of the students who are stuck in the middle end up no where because they need guidance. These are your typical “c” students, you know the ones that don’t flunk every class and well they basically get at most one per year. These are the kids that with a little push they can go up the ranks and even though they would not end up in Harvard, they will graduate from a state school and such. The only reason why they don’t end up in those universities, are because they don’t get that little push from their teachers… I should know, I was one of the few that did get that little push… and I got it in Jr. High from a Math teacher and an English teacher.
I think that if teachers where more organized in other academic goals aside from just getting their raise, the academics of the schools would become more efficient. Because I know for sure that when it comes to getting a raise, then that’s when teachers usually tend to get together and even make strikes about it… But why is it that teachers usually don’t go to the School Board meetings, I mean they are talking about your job?
Now here’s where I cut this off… You and I will never see eye to eye about the situation. I really hope that you are one of the exceptions to the rule about teachers not caring for their kids… I am not a teacher because I feel that in order to teach you need to feel the need to educate the future generations of the country. I don’t have that vocation, and therefore I would not be successful in having a career in teaching.
Like I said before, this is not the thread to discuss education in Calexico… therefore from now on ever reply that you send me I will just ignore it with saying this same sentence…
If you would like to continue discussing this, then please make a thread about this issue and I will be delighted to discuss this topic further. |
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superplayer
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| Posted: 28 Nov 2006 03:10 PM Post subject: |
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| locoinclx wrote: | | superplayer wrote: | | I haven't responded with phrases like those that you have mentioned. I don't need to insult anyone's inteligence or to act defiant to insist on my point, so please let's stick to the main point. |
You did respond with a phrase just like that… here’s what you said…
| superplayer wrote: | | Mr. locoinclx, may I ask you when was the last time you were in a public Junior High classroom during real teaching time? |
It is an indirect judgment that If I am not a teacher or work for anything regarding education, therefore I would not know what I am talking about. Funny, because you did end up commenting on how little time I spend at a school. |
I truly believe that you don't know what's really going on inside real classrooms.
Reason #1 is that it is very evident by the way you write and the ideas that you have, your belief that some teachers just go for the pay check, not knowing that in the last years it has become impossible for anyone to live like that, with all the many state and federal regulations like NoChildLeftBehind and state standards that only those who truly want to work with students can bear all the pressure for the government.
Reason #2 is that you come with the typical responses of anyone that criticizes teachers, such that "they have to be more organized and ...," Move on, what would you do to guarantee the success of teenagers in college? Once again and for many future generations, the classic excuse to rinsing hands of "I am not a teacher and I don't have that vocation for..." It's easy for you to say, just like the many people that I have to deal with all the time.
In response of starting another thread, it's not worth to continue discussing this, I have met way many people with the same arguments before and surely will continue to do, I got used to that. Perhaps my mistake is having started it, knowing in advance their responses. |
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