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superplayer
Wal-Mart Associate
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Calexico
  
Votes: 1
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 Posted: 17 Nov 2006 09:43 AM Post subject: |
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| bfs420 wrote: |
This is true; Northern Mexico is very conservative and disconnected from the south. |
So true, and, in this region, people are way more educated than in the South. In Mexicali, most people believe that Calderon won. In the South most people believe that AMLO won. The people in general, I mean. Who's more educated??? I truly believe in the people of the north because of their education and awareness being way higher. Education is what scholars in Mexico have been arguing for years that it is the true solution to relieve poverty and not just expectations from the government.
People in Mexicali pay way higher taxes (such as with energy bills and others)to feed the chilangos with their Metro subway system because they protest to pay one peso per ride. Over 70% of revenue in Baja Calif. is subsidized by the federal govt. and taken to DF for projects. In the north, we have people who work instead of complain and always look towards the future. In the south, people still look to the past, like in the APPO website that reads "we were enslaved for the last 500 hundred years." Get over it. All successful nations have been oppressed before, looted and raped. Yet they look to the future. Mexicali looks to the future, it would be really sad to see Mexicali a new bastion of the reds. |
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locoinclx
The Door Rehab
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 855
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Votes: 5
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2006 10:15 AM Post subject: |
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| superplayer wrote: | So true, and, in this region, people are way more educated than in the South. In Mexicali, most people believe that Calderon won. In the South most people believe that AMLO won. The people in general, I mean. Who's more educated??? I truly believe in the people of the north because of their education and awareness being way higher. Education is what scholars in Mexico have been arguing for years that it is the true solution to relieve poverty and not just expectations from the government.
People in Mexicali pay way higher taxes (such as with energy bills and others)to feed the chilangos with their Metro subway system because they protest to pay one peso per ride. Over 70% of revenue in Baja Calif. is subsidized by the federal govt. and taken to DF for projects. In the north, we have people who work instead of complain and always look towards the future. In the south, people still look to the past, like in the APPO website that reads "we were enslaved for the last 500 hundred years." Get over it. All successful nations have been oppressed before, looted and raped. Yet they look to the future. Mexicali looks to the future, it would be really sad to see Mexicali a new bastion of the reds. |
Let’s face it; people in Mexico, ALL over Mexico are hot tempered. The minute someone gives them an opposing view, they get all infuriated and want to resort to violence. I am just cheerily amazed on how Mexico D.F. lets all those people do protest and such, while blocking traffic, streets and numerous “colonias” for days at a time. You see all this demonstration that will lead to nothing. If people really wanted to help, then you would educate the masses. It’s been proven time and again that when a country gets better educated they become more independent and democratic.
Mexico is a democracy, the fact that Mexican’s keep electing corrupted politicians does not mean that you have democratic rule. I see it this way. When President Bush won the election against Vice President Gore in 2000, Gore took it to the Supreme Court and after his appeal was struck down, he stated that he would not pursue the recount in the interest of democracy. But when the Mexican Electoral College, which is more transparent than the one in the US, rules in favor of Felipe Calderon then that’s fraud and corruption and all the nifty little slogans that are put in place by the loosing party. There is a large fascist group of people in Mexico who no matter who gets elected will always wage war against him. This is why the elections in Mexico have always become a huge scandal.
I think that in order for Mexico to fix their problems, they have to decentralize the Capital. Mexico D.F. should stop being the center of the world in Mexico and should have more cities rise to become metropolitan hubs. Until that happens then all the power that Mexico D.F. has will control the Government and the Mexican society. It is till then, that the other states in Mexico will be able to benefit from an ever growing economy which till now has only benefited the people in Mexico City. |
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bfs420
Cholo Nako
Joined: 13 Apr 2003
Posts: 22
Votes: 2
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2006 10:43 AM Post subject: |
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| Let's face something, Southern Mexico is a region in which people (ordinary people in general) simply don't read, not even newspapers because people only take a quick glance at newspapers and don't really read. In other words, they lack a big degree of knowledge, such as social sicence. Now every person that you find on the street can guarantee that AMLO won the election and that the PAN lost. Yeah right, overnight they were enlightened, sure. |
Just becuase people are not educated like us in the U.S. or the middle class in Mexico doesn't make people ignorant. I have actually found that the most inteligent people with the most knowledge about politics and social issues are the uneducated people living the situation, not just reading newspapers or searching the net like us.
The election was based on fraud. You can deny yourself that it wasn't in order to have a false idea of democracy in Mexico but Calderon was handed the Presidency. How do you explain the millions of people that took to the streets in protest against the elections. That many people are not moved that easily on a hunch.
| But nobody can deny that APPO is clearly one-sided. Is it really struggling for the good of the people in general? Shit no, it only represents a particular group with its certian red political (cough, PRD, cough). |
Well actually the APPO is not in support of the PRD. If i'm not mistaken the APPO is in favor of the CND. The Democractic National Conference that occurred on the 16th of september in Mexico City. I could be wrong about APPO favoring CND. But they are not in favor of the PRD.
| we have people who work instead of complain and always look towards the future. In the south, people still look to the past, like in the APPO website that reads "we were enslaved for the last 500 hundred years." Get over it. All successful nations have been oppressed before, looted and raped. Yet they look to the future. Mexicali looks to the future, it would be really sad to see Mexicali a new bastion of the reds. |
People work and don't complain, because they don't have any other choice and there is no organized left to represent them. We still have maquiladores and massive expliotation.
Here's your wonderful Calderon in action. 1,400 sriking miners fired in Sonora. Northern Mexico is just as bad as the south. The south is just more radical and organzied.
http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/hispanic/world_international/nam_mexico_strike_0806.asp
I don't understand why you guys are so anti-red or against any type of movement leaning on the socialist side. It's obvious that the current political and economic situation in Mexico does not work to benefit the majority of the population. It only works to benefit the ruling class. And all the struggles north and south are struggling for the same reasons. Why is there so much migration from Mex to the U.S. Cuase the system doesn't work. Why is there so much anger and protest; not cause the people are lazy or want things handed to them, it's becasue the system doesn't work. It needs to be reformed to benefit the working class not just a select few. I mean most of us sitting on our computers in our air conditioned homes don't have to worry about these struggles. We can bitch about it on the Internet. But the fact is, we can't concieve of anything having to do with real change, socialism, or communism because we are isolated from the class struggle. And if we start forgeting about the past and "getting over" the years of struggle, where do we began to draw the line. Oaxaca could soon be long forgeting in a few months from now and the people who lost family and friends in the sruggle should just get over it. I refuse to accept that the people who have struggled for years for a just world, fought and died for nothing. |
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bfs420
Cholo Nako
Joined: 13 Apr 2003
Posts: 22
Votes: 2
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2006 11:00 AM Post subject: |
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| If people really wanted to help, then you would educate the masses. It’s been proven time and again that when a country gets better educated they become more independent and democratic. |
allright were going around in circles. I allready pointed out that the teachers have been a target of violence for over 30 years. For doing exactly that, educating the masses. Educators pose a threat to the balance of power. This is why the whole Oaxaca thing started because of underfunding of the educational system and police repression against teachers. So mass movement is the only option.
| Mexico is a democracy, the fact that Mexican’s keep electing corrupted politicians does not mean that you have democratic rule. I see it this way. When President Bush won the election against Vice President Gore in 2000, Gore took it to the Supreme Court and after his appeal was struck down, he stated that he would not pursue the recount in the interest of democracy. |
If you really want to believe that there is democracy in Mexico be my guest, but you need to look back at the political history of Mexico. PRI dominated politics for most of the 20th century and democracy is something new. Do you really think that the strong hold of the PRI has just disapeared and allowed for a democratic process. Hand picking presidents is typical of old PRI politics. I don't even want to get started on the Bush/Gore election and our wonderful "democracy" in the U.S.
| I think that in order for Mexico to fix their problems, they have to decentralize the Capital. |
I somewhat agree with this, but i'm tired of writing. talk to you guys later. |
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locoinclx
The Door Rehab
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 855
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Votes: 5
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2006 12:06 PM Post subject: |
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| bfs420 wrote: | | If you really want to believe that there is democracy in Mexico be my guest, but you need to look back at the political history of Mexico. PRI dominated politics for most of the 20th century and democracy is something new. Do you really think that the strong hold of the PRI has just disapeared and allowed for a democratic process. Hand picking presidents is typical of old PRI politics. I don't even want to get started on the Bush/Gore election and our wonderful "democracy" in the U.S. |
It is starting to be annoying that you don’t put who was the person that said the quote… please figure out on how to do it rather than just putting quote and quote and quote.
That said... You are talking about the PRI as if they had merged with the PAN. Last time I check they where still a pretty strong party and political force in the numerous local identities in Mexico. The PRI controls most of the municipalities in Mexico as well as retaining the majority of the Legislature. Based on those numbers, I do not believe that the PRI has left the building. They might not control the Presidency, but they definitely control most of the nation.
Please refer to this link for more info on the election:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_state_election%2C_2006
Corruption in general has been a common bedfellow of all the political administrations in Mexico, therefore I see no difference between the parties, but to say that the PAN and the PRI are united, well I’m pretty sure that many of the PAN affiliates wouldn’t agree with that.
I believe that problem may lie with your sense of the term “democracy”. Democracy as detailed in the Webster’s Dictionary is:
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
In lamest terms, democracy is the act of voting for a representative. You have someone that represents you in government. Mexican Elections since the elusive fraud that was committed back in 1988 have become more transparent. They actually give you pictures of the party logos so that you can put a big fat X over it. More and more parties all across Mexico have been voted into power. But above all the most important turn towards a more democratic government happened exactly six years ago, when people all over Mexico where celebrating the victory of President Fox over the PRI.
If you still believe that this election was a fraud then why do you think it took a month for the final results to come out? The majority was given to Felipe Calderon by the IFE and most Mexican’s across the country were satisfied with the result. Because you may forget that 40 million Mexicans voted and out of those 40 million only 3 to 4 million are the ones that cry foul. Remind you that the 40 million Mexicans that voted represent 40 percent of the population in Mexico. Compare that to the 10 percent of the US voting population that votes for president and other things.
By the way you also forget that President Fox did not pick Felipe Calderon. Fox was trying to get Santiago Creel to be his appointed man to the presidency. Yet the PAN decided to go with Felipe Calderon.
With all the commotion that’s going on, I cant even start imagining if the PRI would have come back to power…
By the way… The US has a great democracy, if it didn’t have one; the democrats could have not been able to take control of congress once again… |
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verbal
Cole
Joined: 24 Oct 2002
Posts: 2569
Location: C-Town
Votes: 9
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2006 06:11 PM Post subject: |
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| bfs420 wrote: | | I mean how do you compare a Molotov cocktail and rocks to AK 47’s and paramilitary assassins? |
Easy. They are both the means to the same end, violence.
| bfs420 wrote: | | How much oppression can people take before we follow the state’s use of violence and retaliate? |
Depends who you want to ask? History has given great figures like Ghandi, King, Chavez, Mandela (to a certain non-violent extent), and the like.
Is your group advocating self-defense or a revolution?
It seems your propaganda is calling for a revolution. |
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superplayer
Wal-Mart Associate
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Calexico
Votes: 1
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2006 09:10 PM Post subject: |
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So the APPO does not support the PRD? It clearly states in your poster "Obrador Presidente!" AMLO is the cacique of the PRD and his word is divine in the PRD.
I wonder if this guy has a serious topic to be worth discussing. |
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superplayer
Wal-Mart Associate
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Calexico
Votes: 1
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| Posted: 17 Nov 2006 09:31 PM Post subject: |
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Oaxaca is so poor that it can't pay for teachers without assistance from federal govt. One of the most valuable resources of income, tourism, is being embattled by APPO. They don't like foreigners, but they reserve the right to protest the construction of a wall along the border. Not that I am in favor of the wall, but I just can't understand such hypocrisy. They also prevented the performance of the annual La Guelaguetza leaving many people unemployed on that tourist attraction, just because they were protesting. Imagine if APPO was in control of the government, Oaxaca would be another Guatemala.
Last thursday, an American reporter was killed while working, but of course, its OK if you are from there. |
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verbal
Cole
Joined: 24 Oct 2002
Posts: 2569
Location: C-Town
Votes: 9
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bfs420
Cholo Nako
Joined: 13 Apr 2003
Posts: 22
Votes: 2
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| Posted: 19 Nov 2006 06:32 PM Post subject: |
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| locoinclx wrote: | | It is starting to be annoying that you don’t put who was the person that said the quote… please figure out on how to do it rather than just putting quote and quote and quote.. |
I don't spend all my time on the internet so excuse me if i'm not technologically competent.
| locoinclx wrote: | | That said... You are talking about the PRI as if they had merged with the PAN. |
When I say that the PRI and the PAN are in alliance, I'm refering to political and economic interests. They represent the same interests of privatizing Mexico's largest nationalized companies, PEMEX and CFE. This is why Felipe Calderon was essential to the presidency because he was openly in favor of privatization in Mexico. Calderon declared to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) that he would go through with the structural adjustment programs of privatization of PEMEX, CFE, and education. Just how the Democrats and Republicans have the same political Interests in Iraq; the PRI and the PAN are different parties but with the same interests in privitazation.
| locoinclx wrote: | | In lamest terms, democracy is the act of voting for a representative. |
Yeah, I understand that. But if the race is too close to call and there is not an accurate recount, how do you justify that the representative was actually voted in by the people and not by fraud.
| locoinclx wrote: | | If you still believe that this election was a fraud then why do you think it took a month for the final results to come out? The majority was given to Felipe Calderon by the IFE and most Mexican’s across the country were satisfied with the result. Because you may forget that 40 million Mexicans voted and out of those 40 million only 3 to 4 million are the ones that cry foul. |
Most people don't really care about politics and have no faith in the democratic process. Most people are probably on the assumption that it would not make a differnce if AMLO had won. So you can't expect the entire electorate to take to the streets and cry fraud especially since many voted against AMLO. So you suggests we merely brush aside the 3-4 million people that took to the streets and are angry at the democratic process? So we should ingnore that voice since most mexican's stayed at home watching novelas? How many people will it take? Once again, 3-4 million people are not moved be merely a hunch. I say there should be accurate recounts in order to dimiss the controversy and end the ambiguety. Only 9% of the presincts were recounted. Why was there not a full recount when millions of people were demanding for it?
http://www.narconews.com/Issue42/article2010.html
| locoinclx wrote: | | By the way… The US has a great democracy, if it didn’t have one; the democrats could have not been able to take control of congress once again… |
Yes, in general we have a good democracy in the strict sense of the word. Now if the democratic process actually does work in truly representing the people; that is another question. But to stick with the topic, If we have such a great democracy, why did we have the Bush/Gore controversy? In these cases, where the race is too close to call; why are effective recounts not completed in order to give an accurate account of the true winner in order to completely discredit the controversy? What we have instead are controversial recounts that only add to the ambiguety. If we had a true democracy, we would not be talking about the bush/gore situation. Mexico as well as the U.S. has political and economic interests at stake in order to make sure that key representatives take office in order to go through with specific policies.
On lighter news; the Bi-National Conference went really well. I went down to Mexicali with Socialist Organizer from UC santa cruz and we had people from various places go down as well. There was a caravan of students from UC santa barbara, UC Irvine, san diego; students from the University of Tijuana, and of course UABC. We had teachers and supporters of the PTDI workers party, Carlos Reyes from the APPO in Oaxaca, and various individuals from the community of Mexicali and Calexico. We discussed the situation in Oaxaca and what we could do in our own communities. We drew up a declaration supporting APPO,the CND, teachers, students, and the people fighting in Oaxaca. We are organizing marches on Dec 1st in our own communities in support of Oaxaca and denouncing Felipe Calederon on the day he will be anaugurated president of Mexico. After the convention we staged a small march at the border and walked down streets in Mexicali. We made a bunch of noise and had a great experience. Hopefully it made the paper. |
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